Folks,
 We have discussed quite a bit in the aspect of religions that involved for the society what it meant to shape us now and what it is now. We evaluated a lot of verses written a few thousands years ago, in that context. And we do work hard to understand (interpret) in today's sense. And quite a few things still do make sense. 

Here is what I propose to ponder:
What should be the role of religion moving forward?
What should it teach, focus, encourage(discourage)?

Some religions talked salvation(Moksha), some englightenment, etc etc..(but only a few similar ones)

What is should be the purpose?

Moreover, thinking even more radically, is there even a place for religion?

What do you think?

@Kiddo bro,
technically speaking people who do not believe in ghosts are Atheists also. But to answer your question, let us imagine they are different group of people. This group of people does not have an agenda againsts religion. They are not saying that religion has nothing to contribute to the world. They do not seek a religion free world. So why should Theists have issue with them?. It is only Atheists VS Theists out here. Just like people who believe in ghosts are Theists, but let us take them as a seperate group. Atheists do not ask this group of people their contribution to the world. So why should they ask the Atheist any question also?. Makes sense bro?. 

 @ vhootee,

Again, said by people who still debate if beef should be allowed to sell in the country. Start small. Religion should not be the piller to introduce a law which goes to the saying of separation of church and state. In that context, if you believe it that they should be separated, then beef should be allowed to people who wants to eat them. No single law (made out of single belief, religion) should be enforced to every other people. So instead of yammering all your intellectual thoughts here in sajha and pasting from wikipedia, please move forward with something small, LET THERE BE BEEF on the streets of Nepal. Say YES to COW MEAT 

LOL, that typwe of thoughts come when you do not think out of the box, think traditionally, My friend one requirement for success in life is to open eye/ ear and thought process . 
What I have said in that posting is 

I was In Isrsael a jewish country by constitution. Jewish dont eat pork. Minority are muslims in Israel Muslims also dont eat pork but in market you can buy pork
why 
because christians also live in Israel, Russian jews they also eat pork so to serve them pork is avaiulable in market.

Israel is considered to be striclty a jewish state based on jewish values and practice  and in Judaism pork is not eaten. Even in that country it is ok to sell the pork, nothing happens to the religion, then why we are crying if someone is serving beef in Nepal? That was the message I wanted to deliver.


I was in Malaysia , a muslim country by constitution but in market you can buy pork
why 
because chines do live in malaysia which are either christians or budhhist or taoist or atheist they eat pork so to serve them pork is avilable.

You know how strict are muslims about pork in India and pakistan, but Malaysia, another muslim country pork is available in the market where muslims shop
And guess what because of this openness Malaysia  and Israel are able to provide job to hundreds of Neplais. Indians and Pakistanis.So in a jewish country it is ok to sell pork, In a muslim country its ok to sell pork and ina secular country , Nepal it is not ok to sell Beef?
That was the message I wanted to deliver
If you want to know about one of the pig farm in Malaysia, let me give a link of Wiki, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepang, if you read this you will find governement is helping a pig farm. For religius fanatics it can be the source civil war in the country. 
From that posting I think people from different background got different message. The way you took message from that posting I can see from what background you came from.

That is what happens when peoples thoughts are influenced by their culture/religion and practice. 
For your information When I first ate beef, I dont feel anyhting, it was just a meat for me. I have eaten horse meat, when I first ate, it was also just a meat, nothing else.
Had fun eating toad in China. I order fried toad. After 2 minutes waitress took me to an aquaraium and asked me to choose the toad (live in aquarium) I want. I chose a big toad. after half an hour it was in my dinner table, tasted like chicken. Ate snake soup in China, nothing special.

The only time I feel something was while eating dogs meat in South Korea. In my third visit to south Korea I ate dog ( could not eat dog in my first and second visit). Felt bit odd in my first bite, after that everything was normal.

These are the reality of my life, and you got different message from a posting of a guy who eats almost everything, is not that funny?
In that posting I even tried to tell people that beef is being used in Nepal not only now but almost 20 yeras back. and may be beofre that because I was in one supermarket in Pulchok in 2050, I saw "Rindflisch" which is beef. Who knows since when they started to sell beef? do I care?


But you got totally different message from my posting. Similarly I can see people from different cultural background got different message

Why this happened? because most of the time people dont want to open their thought process. Their ability to get message from something is limited by their religion/cultural background etc.

So my friend, open your thought process. try to think out of the box. dont hide behind the wall of your cultural background and religion.

For many people it was just an apple falling from the  tree, for Newton it was gravity

And that is why some people avoid facts because facts bites them. Subjective discussion you can always get the message you want, which could be far from reality.

regarding my posting from Wiki, if there in no citation i dont post from Wiki, if there is citation, prrof I post from Wiki, Wiki has eveloved a lot . When there is already a built road, you dont need to buit new road for you journy.

When Nature has already given us a brain that can be used properly to achieves somehting you want to achieve you dont need the solace of third party thoughts.

@Freedom

You said Agnostics aren't Athiest. They sure aren't, otherwise they wouldn't have two different names. But if you have to identify agnostic to one particular group, would you think they are closer to atheism or Christianism (or any religion)? Both do not believe in presence of a deity. Besides, you are again missing the point. You keep putting blanket statements without connections. You said, Buffet was raised with Christian values. You earlier gave examples of agnostic Stalin. Guess how Stalin was raised? He went to a church school growing up in Georgia (part of USSR then). Can I say, the "crime" he committed should be attributed to his Christian upbringing?

I seriously have no clue in what reference you posted the second comment directed to me. Are you still talking about the difference between Agnostic and Atheist? I hope I already covered that above. I raised multiple other things that I haven't seen a rebuttal coming from you; so, it doesn't "make sense ,bro."

Freedom ji everything *seemed* to be going well for you according to your own logic but your logic fails you in your own statement here

"God has already helped. Medicines to cure the sick, Money to alleviate poverty and to give food, Raw materials in the environment to build houses, etc."

If God helped by giving medicine to sick, why did he create sickness in the first place? Afai dhami afai jhakri, I guess when you have blind faith, every explanation seems to be devine. Sickness is caused by physical, chemical and biological processes and scientists invented the medicines to counter the effects of sickness. Similarly if God created money to alleviate poverty why did he created poverty in the first place. Again, money was created by human beings as a way of exchanging commodities not handed down by god. You seem to find consolation in attributing everything good to god because it makes you feel like you are a part of a greater scheme of things. If god was so great in providing raw materials to build houses, he could have provided ready made houses so poor human beings would not have to wait thousands of years of civilization to start to live in houses.

@________

I don't think it's a fair comparison between a pork and a cow. Jews and Muslims don't eat pork because it is considered to be "unclean" by Hebrew bible and Quran. Any animal without split hooves are considered non-kosher. Cow is sacred and considered a Goddess in hindu scriptures. Selling beef in open market is thus an insult to Hindu religion and deities.

But, having said that, Nepal is a secular country now and no law should be enforced from a religious context. Regardless of my views on beef consumption, I cannot support a ban on its trades. Now, with the same token, we also shouldn't allow any other laws stemming from other religions.

धर्म : स्व-अनुसासन गर्ने एक प्रणाली हो | आजकल यो मागी खाने भाडो भएको छ |

 Now, something for my friend,  freedom 2012

No offence taken my friend, as I told, I was just trying analyse your psychology based on my knowledge of Forensic Psychology,

I talked of Christian charities and you gave me a link of 25K charity. I was talking more on the lines of World Vision(1950), Salvation Army(1865) . Red Cross (1859),

My freind, first you talked about donation in tsunami and hurricanes, and enlightn me about how maney is coming from christian pocket ( although you failed to give a proof that all those money were by Christians only)
When I put froth the charity by neplese people then you are saying 25K charity aand , about the world vision and red cross.

first,  since when religious ppl became so materialistic, is not it the positive thinking of helping someone is more imporatnt than the how much you donate in religion ? giving importance to the quantity of money being donated  you once again showed you your attitude. 

Is 5000$ donation from a rich guy is more important than the 10$ donation form a hourly worker? Is it ok to measure donation in monitary value ?
second, statistical view of 25K donation 

population of nepal 30 million (approx)--donation --25K
population of US 300 million (approx) -equivalent doantion would be 250 K

based on population it is 250 for US, now add that base don percapita
GDP per capita of  nepal--1200$ ----donation --250K
GDP per capita of Us --- 48,300--so equivalent doantion would be ( 250*40)=10,000K, not bad ha?

So nepal donated 10,000K equivalent of US

Donantion of US to Japan also depends upon that countri's military base in Japan, strategic tie, national security concern of US. etc. Donation from nepal will not be affected by such things so it is a act of generosity only just to show that we are with them.
But I was shocked when you comapred the donation in m onitary value,

Donantion by red cross/Worls Vision comes from all over the world, from all walks of like not just from one religion.

And if you are talking about the establishment of these orhanization by the person of certain beleive the let me tell you somehting.

For everything there is cause and effect. Cause for establishment of RedCross was death of 40,000 ppl in  1859 in a war between Austria and the Franco-Sardinian alliance, both parties were beleivers. What was the populaton of that area in 1859, 40,000 dead or lay dead in battle filed? what was that? that was the cause my friend and the effect was the establishemnt of Redcross , let me copy and paste from ICRC website,

The Red Cross idea was born in 1859, when Henry Dunant, a young Swiss man, came upon the scene of a bloody battle in Solferino, Italy, between the armies of imperial Austria and the Franco-Sardinian alliance. Some 40,000 men lay dead or dying on the battlefield and the wounded were lacking medical attention. 
http://www.ifrc.org/en/who-we-are/history/

So you dont want to touch the problems caused by warring beleivers for power and money, you dont want to acept the crime committed on humanity by those power hungry beleivers but at the same time cleaverly would like to take the credit for the noble action taken by a great man, how logical is that? how innocencet is that? How cunning is that?

The behavior is like that of a clever oppertunist mercahnt. Please dont drag noble action performed by great person for you religious beelif. 
And what was the religion of Henry Dunant ? Once again from Wiki

Born	Jean Henri Dunant May 8, 1828 Geneva, Switzerland
Died	October 30, 1910 (aged 82) Heiden, Switzerland
Cause of death	Old age
Body discovered	Switzerland
Resting place	Switzerland
Nationality	Swiss, French[1]
Citizenship	Swiss
Occupation	Social activist, Businessman, Writer
Known for	Founder of the Red Cross
Religion	Calvinism (early years) non-religious in later life
Children	Daughter
Parents	Jean-Jacques Dunant Antoinette Dunant-Col[Disallowed String for - bad word]n
Awards	Nobel Peace Prize (1901)

I know you will try to say yeah he was Christian in the begenning But please dont use great ppl and their great works for you religious beleif that is too gross.

We will continue my friend

 Freedom2012,"your comments are full of non sequitur." Really ? And you are very sequiter putting your faith in a book written 1500 yrs ago gloryfying a man who came back from the dead ? The New Testament was written within approximately 15 - 70 years of Christ's death, within the lifetime of the disciples and their close associates. And all those miracles could have been a total exaggeration of the actual events(if you have ever played the whispering game as a child). Do you know of anyone who can turn water into wine ? lol !! Its like David Copperfield walking through the stone walls of The Great Wall of China

Freedom,"Just like you have taken Penicillin discovered by a Christian (Alexander Fleming). Just like you enjoy the many discoveries and inventions made by Christians." You are so selective in your Christian Scientific discoveries its funny. Science is a fact based upon logic and reasoning. I know I will be rid of my headache if I take an asprin. Can we say the same about your almighty Jesus ? Will he rid of my headache if I pray ? lol !! Nope. So there you go, I am not trying to see which Christian discovered what ..he he I am talking about Jesus Juice and his so called power of healing in comparison to Science and medicine.  

Freedom,"If you believe Nepal/India are examples of egalitarian and meritocratic societies then good for you."  Nepal is more of a meritocratic than egalitarian society. Just like the west and its class system or the top 2% as its called here in the US. So it is obvious you are blinded by the false fallacies western society and its religious belief Christianity. 

Freedom,"God has already helped. Medicines to cure the sick, Money to alleviate poverty and to give food, Raw materials in the environment to build houses, etc." Really ? lol !! Did you see him ?   Doctors cure the sick. Did you see Jesus come and hand them raw materials for construction? he he Hard work and perseverance with alleviate poverty. NOT Jesus Not Bible But YOU. 




 ____,
if you can please keep your statement short and conscise, that will be very helpful. Your last statement pointed towards me sounded like you agree with me about beef and then went on to lecture how to be open and out of box. See, if you agree, say YES and move on. Beef meat has always been a taboo in Nepal primarily because of Hindu belief. You say you saw it 20 years back. We are not talking about black market and for tourist restaurant with a fake name beef. We are talking about letting people sell beef next to chicken and goat meat at your local street. Beef should be readily available just like goat, period. Now please don't tell me you have seen that too.
And please keep it within the context of beef and nepal and not go around the world to make a statement, if you want to debate. Short please, short.

Voteee,

Cow and pork meat are not good comparision. One society restricts Pig because its filthy and the other society restricts it because its a holy symbol. Hindus love that animal and do not want to seen it cut. The love may have been the product of religion or the custom of just not murdering the cow. Now if you have to compare Cow meat in nepal with other meats abroad, the fair comparision would be to be allowed to sell Dog and Cat meat in the western world. Westerners are in love with dogs and cats and do not want to see them cut into pieces and fed to people. While for Chinese dogs and cats could just be another delicacy. Are americans more advanced and cooler to not let dogs and cats butchered? Are chinese sub humans for eating dogs and cats? I think a fair judgement to put Nepal would be with USA on Dogs and Cats meat.

Personally i enjoy a good juicy burger but i understand the uncomfortable situation in Nepal and Nepalse with Cow Meat.

Freedom2012,

So from Dharke's postings its clear that Stalin and Hitler were raised as christians and they ended up murdering millions and the Guy who was raised as christina then turned religion less created Red Cross.


Like most "transformed" christian like yourself. All you needed to know was Jesus loved you and that was good enough for you to create your own reality.

Christians donate and Hindus do not ( data proves it wrong)
Christians have good values and do not kill ( data proves it wrong)
Christians do not get strike with natural disaster( data proves it wrong)
Christian countries do not kill each other ( data proves it wrong)
Atheists do not donate ( data proves it wrong)


And you manage to cherry pick the truth. It is easy to convince a poor, uneducated, a hopeless third world unfortunate with the good word of Jesus and christianity but its not easy to sell the sam junt to above average folks. In sajha, so far everyone participating are above average folks and NOONE is buying your stuff here. You should learn something for that.

 What's the beef with Beef ? I mean C'mon, if there was a famine in Nepal tomorrow.. would you rather Starve yourself to death or eat that cow ? Only a fool would starve to death because of their religious belief. So to those vegetarians, vegans, non beef eaters etc etc 
WE EAT TO LIVE, WE DO NOT LIVE TO EAT.  Those kids in famnine ravaged countries like Ethiopia, do you think they care what kind of meat is being served ? During the hunter and gatherer's time, people ate whateverthey could kill. So for ppl to say I won't eat this or that due to my religious or personal belief is just plain bullshit.

 Sap,
I understand your comparison. Simply because Hindu worship it does not mean I don't eat it, I will, not disrepect. But why are you enforcing me with your belief? See, Cats and Dogs are NOT worshiped, they are "loved" and there is no Christain faith attached to it (unless the guy knows as RID comes up with conspiracy theory ). Beef is simply a case of one dominent religion making it as a law, not fair to the others. Yes, some asian eat dogs espcially where food is scarce, Mongoalians eat horse cause there is plenty. But their views are slowly changing when they step into a culture where there is plenty of meat to choose from, take a look at the Koreans. I complety agree, it can be a difficult situation but it should not be againt the law to eat beef and beef market should prosper as well.

Sap Ji
You seem to be a smart guy. Here is the question and give me a straight answer. People who worship COW in nepal went that far to call a animal completly different species as "Chaouri Gai" aka Yak. They put the Gai (cow) at the end and now suddenly we are cow eaters. How fair do you think that it? I grew up being bullied all my life as "Cow Eater" in high school. They could have named it anything in this world but they called it "Gai" at the end. But they have no word for TV, Car, Bus etc. See the resentment?

From this thread it seems like most posters in sajha are either agnostic or atheist. That is quite contrary to a test group in Nepal who are mostly religious.

Votee,

You are still not getting my point. Cows are indeed loved by majority of Nepali. They cannot no think of murdering it and eating it. majority do not want to see a cut up bloody cow in a butcher shot as they see a goat, chicken, buffalo and a pig cut up. My point is folks in nepal do not want to see a cut up cow the same way folks in USA do not want to see a cut up dog and a cat in the grocery store.

I am just making a fair comparision. A pig and a cow is not a good comparision. We need to compare two beloved animals not a gross one and the beloved one. Although its seems like its belief oriented its actually not. Its love oriented and the love could have come from the premise of religion.

@wanton...it seems that way, but it is not true.....I keep having a lot of debates with people here in Nepal on the subject these days....but most ofthe time it usually turns out that I am more knowledgeable of their religion that they are......most of the religious people don't know what religon is in the first place........really weird..........

I think most people in Nepal become religious because they are brainwashed by the culture. From early stages in life one has to go through so many religious activities that includes everyday prayers and exposure to others performing religious functions. Every house has a puja kotha or a puja corner. You grow up with it you can't deny it but then when you begin to question it, you feel like a traitor. You are not allowed to question an elder person let along an age old religion.

It's the culture of submission and obedience. It's not easy to break that barrier of religious righteousness that manifests itself due to constant conditioning at the existential level of people in general.

 Vhootee, 

while answering me you could have respected my right. Is that too much to expect from you? I have  answered you, politly but you want answer in your own way??

Am I your slave ?
Are you a dictator who like answers only yes or no?
Is this a exam where questions are supposed to be answered only by either "yes" or "no"

This is what happens when people know only about their rights but aslways forget to respect others right.
This is free world my friend, at lest you should learn how to respect others.

or sorry may be you have ADHD where it is difficult for people to keep attention  even for short period of time. I checked the length of my answer , altogther including your posting bit more than a page, is that too much too read? then my friend , may be you are in wrong place  . you should keep yourself with twitter.

and regarding Beef selling togther with goat and chicken, you mean in open  in some tarkari bajar with all flies and everything  flying arround meat?
why you want to beef to be sold like that ? You know what? selling meat that way is very unhygenic. That practice shuld be abandoned. Or may be just to satisfy your ego people start to sell beef like that? is satisfying your ego is more important than public  health?

FYI the beef was not being sold in balck market. many Nepalis visit   that super market. That super market is in the main street. And that supermarket still exists . and on the top of that they were selling lambs from australia, frozen chicken and "Rindflisch" . happy like a kid now??

or still you demand  to see selling beef  togther with chicken and lamb in open near "Fohar maila conatiner" . 

You live in a society, you have certain rights but that does not mean you have right to ignore the rights of otheres.
for example chinese eat formented rats  so should chinese demand walmart should start selling formented rats in place where they sell beef? Koreans eat dogs meat, but in US it is fobiddon to sale dogs meat except in Hawaii i think, correct me if i am wrong, what happend to the rights of the koreans living in US?
Koreans also eats sort of boiled worm ( I dont know what type of worm is that but you will find people selling boiled worms in farmers market. from outised it looks like "khumre kira" in Nepal. Should koreans demand "Smith", albortsons, wallmart, Kohl, Aldi must sale those in place where they sale beef?

Whales meat is delicacy in Japan. the meat is such demand that Japanese even dont sign "International treaty banning  killing of whale" 
should Japanese demand walmart should start selling whales meat in wall mart ?
It is one thing to harbour a ego for certain things.
My friend forget about buyng dogs meat in wallmart Just think what if a Korean slaughter a dog in his private home in US and eat. 



Dog meat sold in Gyeongdong Market, Seoul, South Korea

What you think of above picture? Now lots of koreans in US too, what about selling dogs meat in farmers market in US along with beef (in places where there are koreans). What will be the reaction from society?

opps sorry, you can not concentrate when the answer is more than yes or no, my mistake

added later,

So selling beef has already happed in Nepal probably started almost 25 years ago , some people dont like it they have right to express that. Some people dont care ( that includes me). and some people want it to be sold togther with other meat in open market 

 Sap Dude
I think you don't get my point either. You said Nepali love cows as much dogs in the west. Are you sure about this statement?I don't know what you were thinking to make such an amusing statement. Where I come from in Nepal, cows are nuisance, they are a burden nobody wants to deal with. I grew up seeing them cursed, beaten (almost to death - yes, but not killed if you are offended ). Here is  what happens in my part of Nepal, maybe not yours. Early in the morning, these cows are stealing vegetables and the shop owner beat the shit out of them. I've seen them bloodied with broken head and legs. Then some fool come and drink a shot of the urine this cow makes after bring beaten. They sleep and block the traffic at every corner, the classic image we see on TV in the west (maybe propaganda for some folks here). Their population is uncontrolled, no organization cares for stray cows that are hindering and jeopardizing people's life. Really most cow worshipping friends I've come across don't give a damn about cow. Oh! Yes they do put a garland on their neck one day of the year - Gai Puja - in the name of religion. That's about it. The word 'love' for a cow is a bit arrogant and a joke - unless you're out of touch with reality. To compare 'love' for dogs in the west and the love for cows in Nepal are two different world. They are not even remotely close. It simply comes out of people's faith, and nothing else. 

Vootee,

You seem to be a smart guy. Here is the question and give me a straight answer. People who worship COW in nepal went that far to call a animal completly different species as "Chaouri Gai" aka Yak. They put the Gai (cow) at the end and now suddenly we are cow eaters. How fair do you think that it? I grew up being bullied all my life as "Cow Eater" in high school. They could have named it anything in this world but they called it "Gai" at the end. But they have no word for TV, Car, Bus etc. See the resentment?

The problem in the above statement is not the COW MEAT, the problem is the BULLYING. The bullys would have found some other thing about you to bully with if you were not a cow eater.

This is interesting. Do you have a problem with someone calling you a "cow eater" or is your problem with someone trying to offend you? Why would Cow Eating be derogotary or bullying to you? Does "cow eating" mean less human to you? What is it about that label that bothers you? Usually i am not bothered when Khaires exclaim when i tell them i eat Goat. How is it different than a khaire making fun of me for eating a goat? the concept of "goat eating" does not offend me i am interested to know why the concept of "cow eating" offends you.

The only point i am making is, if you kill a cow and display a cut up cow to bunch of cow lovers they will be offended. They may even be offended hearing about someone else being exposed to a cut up cow even if they were not there to personally witness it. I personally would not offend Americans by displaying a cut up dog to them, a cut up pig to muslims and a cut up cow to hindus. Personally, if 5 cow eaters get together and murder a cow in a confined private location and eat up the cow i am okay with that. But i am saying the society as a whole is sometimes not okay with that. Humans seem to have a diffrent group thoughts than individual thoughts. If you eat a dog in USA...i am sure children will call you dog eater and if you eat a pig in Saudi you will be called a pig eater.



Yes all animals are abused in Nepal and cows are not exception. But within the animal kingdom Cows are probably the most fortunate ones in Nepal. Animals are abused everywhere even in the first world. Do you know the Michael Vick story?